This interview was conducted on Friday, September 6, 2024 on RadioChad (estimated duration of the first part: 40 minutes).
Chad: David, a regular on the show, mentioned Ashes of Mankind in a previous episode on January 23rd. However, we didn't delve into it then. He was talking about Ultra in general, mentioning this game as part of their roadmap. I completely forgot about it until I saw a video by Capet talking about Ashes of Mankind. Intrigued, I started researching the game and thought it would be great to explore it with you. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how this game came to be.
Adrien: My career started in the French army at the age of 18. After that, I moved on to other things, which I won't go into detail about here. During that time, I gained some video experience. My family had a jewelry store, which I took over to help my parents and grandparents financially. Alongside that, I worked on Miner Wars, the original version of Space Engineers, which many people are familiar with. I launched Space Engineers with the team.
I then transitioned to a role as a video game producer, eventually becoming the Chief Operating Officer (COO). In November 2021, we officially established Black Ice Studios with the support of Ultra to develop Ashes of Mankind. The game, in its current form, only exists since our partnership with Ultra. We created prototypes and tested a lot of things; the game wasn't always like it is now, going through multiple iterations. In mid-2021, David and Nicolas expressed strong interest in our team and vision for the game, leading to the creation of Black Ice Studios in partnership with Ultra that November.
Chad: So, Ashes of Mankind is the first game from Black Ice Studios?
Adrien: Correct. The team consists of 20 experienced individuals, with alumni from Ubisoft, Yay, Bizarr, Funcom (who are working on the new Dune), and others. Unlike teams coming directly from the crypto world, we're composed of gamers who love video games and want to create games they themselves enjoy. The team boasts an average of 8-10 years of experience, not to mention some big names we haven't publicly announced, as part of our marketing strategy.
Chad: That aligns perfectly with what Ultra was looking for. As you mentioned in our January interview, their goal was to create games for those who love games, not just blockchain-driven titles. They wanted to prioritize a real game experience, not just its necessary components.
Adrien: Absolutely.
Chad: And how many people are working on this game?
Adrien: Around twenty of us.
Chad: Okay, tell us about the game's concept. From what I gather, the gameplay revolves around teamwork within a dynamically generated Citadel. The goal is to capture something like a flag, but each Citadel is unique and different every time. Is that accurate?
Adrien: Not entirely. Ashes of Mankind features two distinct modes of play, two versions of the same game. The Citadels mode, which you mentioned, has a few points worth clarifying. And then there's Empires, where Web3 plays a crucial role for players looking to monetize their play time.
Citadels is an extraction-style game, although I dislike that term because it's often misconstrued. Twelve teams of three players start at the bottom of the Citadel, striving to survive, climb to the top, and ultimately extract. It's not a capture-the-flag scenario. The objective is to loot, gather gear, and extract with it to use in future matches.
Chad: So, it's similar to a Diablo-like game, where you progress through levels, loot items, and fight monsters?
Adrien: More like a Tarkov or the recently released Arena Breakout. But we have some surprises up our sleeve; we're not simply recreating those games. Triple A isn't just about budget, it's about quality. Quality isn't just about graphics, it's also about accessibility. Games like Tarkov and Arena Breakout have cumbersome user experiences and less user-friendly controls. We're addressing those issues and improving them in Ashes of Mankind.
Empires, on the other hand, is designed for players who want to monetize their game time. It's accessible from anywhere—a web browser, an app, your phone. These players produce the items, cosmetics, and assets that Citadels players seek.
Chad: You mentioned the game has been in development for a long time and has gone through numerous versions. Was the initial concept drastically different? And if so, what was it and why did you make so many changes?
Adrien: The previous versions were entirely different games, though with the same core team. They were prototypes and vertical slices, as the industry calls them. We were a team of five at the time. We approached it like a large studio, with a dozen teams creating and developing prototypes.
We didn't create all twelve at once, but sequentially, considering various factors: Is it a game we'd enjoy playing? Is it a game we'd be passionate about developing? Is it feasible with current technology? We considered many things. Eventually, when we landed on the current version of Ashes of Mankind, we felt we were truly onto something, something we wanted to develop. It also has a personal element for me, incorporating aspects never seen in other games, inspired by my own military experience.
Chad: I was about to ask if your FPS background played a role in the game's design.
Adrien: Not directly, but it was a contributing factor.
Ben2zeji: Greetings to Adrien, the community, and you, Chad. I'd like to touch on some points regarding the game's description. From what I understand, it's a looter shooter with an extraction element. You mentioned that the studio was backed in November 2021 with a prototype you and your colleagues had already established. To what extent did Ultra's technology and value proposition, incorporating blockchain, APIs, and their toolkits, unlock gameplay possibilities that enabled you to create a game that truly attracts players?
Adrien: Our partnership with Ultra stems from their search for developers to create a gamer-focused video game. We, in turn, sought an integrated blockchain technology that works seamlessly without limitations.
Regarding your question, it's not entirely accurate to say that Ultra provided technology specifically for our game. Ultra provides technology supporting our Web3 vision. In that regard, their contribution has been significant. We're approached by two to three blockchains and platforms daily, but none match Ultra's level. Their technology surpasses what Nicolas and David have achieved with Ultra.
While Ultra's contribution isn't directly focused on the Web2 side, there are elements there, primarily related to monetization. However, I won't elaborate further as it's a conversation better had with David. I believe there will be several surprises in the coming weeks, perhaps as soon as next week. But Ultra's main contribution lies in the Empires side, where their technology has been instrumental. The gameplay side of Empires required minimal work, except for the economic aspects, ensuring clarity and functionality. However, the technological foundation was already in place. It opened many doors.
Ben2zeji: So, to delve into the gameplay specifics, regarding NFTization of assets. If you loot, for example, a particular weapon in a Citadel crate, and Ultra offers a platform with a secondary market for player-to-player buying and selling, is that a concrete example?
Adrien: In general, gameplay assets, what we internally refer to as database assets, which can be looted within the game, aren't on the blockchain, except for specific exceptions. So, if you find a weapon in the Citadel, it won't be on the blockchain. Our aim, and Ultra's, is to prevent pay-to-win scenarios. Players' actions and progress depend solely on their own skills and efforts. Their power is determined by their ability to survive, extract correctly, and retain their gear.
Ben2zeji: So, the Ultra platform's significance is primarily on the Empires side, if I understand correctly?
Adrien: Indeed. However, Citadels also utilizes Ultra for blockchain support. We use it for cosmetics, technology, down payments, Arena, and much more. Many developers promote Web3 technology as beneficial for players, which is true. However, what truly interests players is the game, not the technology. Ultra's strength lies in its technological support, unlocking previously closed doors and allowing us to create a high-quality game that attracts a wider player base.
In Empires, players produce technologies and cosmetics, which are then sold to Citadels players. There's the supply from Empires players (Web3) and the demand from Citadels players (Web2). This creates a unique connection between these two player bases. It's unprecedented because previously, Web3 players lacked access to an open and extensive market, often restricted to limited player pools.
With Ashes of Mankind, Web3 players have the opportunity to monetize assets, NFTs, and so forth, to a broader Web2 player base, who are actively seeking them. Web2 players can purchase technologies from Web3 players, acquiring licenses for producing weapons or crafting them in-game. You'll still need to gather resources within Citadels to craft those weapons, but the technology itself will be sold by Web3 players and bought by Web2 players.
Chad: I was about to ask you about that. What are the technological limitations, if any? If you can buy powerful weapons, does it give you an advantage? We agree it's a team-based game, right?
Adrien: It's a 100% PVP game; 12 teams of three players clash within the Citadel. There aren't weapons that are inherently more or less powerful. Weapons can be upgraded through gameplay and player effort, but buying technology to produce a weapon grants you the right to do so. If you buy an AR-15, you're buying the right to produce that AR-15 in your crafting station. You still need to gather resources and craft it. Think of it as purchasing a production license.
It's similar to League of Legends, where you might favor a specific champion. Instead of waiting for that champion to rotate, you buy it and have constant access. In an extraction game, you're limited to the weapons you find during your raid and those in your stash. However, if you love the AR-15, you can raid in the Citadel, gather resources, and craft it. It's not pay-to-win because you still need to survive, extract, and obtain resources. But you have access to the weapon you prefer. You can choose to buy it from a corporation to show off.
Chad: Fascinating. Before embracing Ultra's technology, did you consider other technologies in the Web3/blockchain ecosystem, or was Ultra your immediate choice?
Adrien: We worked directly with Ultra.
Chad: Did Ultra propose the idea of Empires, or did you come up with it?
Adrien: Ultra and Black Ice Studios are constantly in communication—Nicolas, David, and myself. We're heavily involved in gameplay, game loop, and so forth. The origins of Empires are difficult to pinpoint definitively because it evolved through numerous conversations, particularly with David. We don't negotiate; instead, we tend to align. The advantage is that David has a deep understanding of Web3, while I'm more focused on Web2. This led to a system beneficial for both types of players.
(to be continued)
